Overpair facing min check-raise, NL Cash

Game type: No limit cash, 6-max
Your image: Very aggressive
Misc notes:
Your hand: T♦T♣

The Setup: Preflop, the table folds to you and you raise to 3x the BB. Player C calls and the blinds fold. The flop gives an over:

2♠6♦9♠

You’ve been playing flops very aggressively, and you continue that trend by betting about the pot. Your opponent raises you the minimum. What’s your play?

Loading ...

8 COMMENTS (Jump to comment form)

Nelson

I call and evaluate the turn. Yes, there are definitely some cards that could come out to scare us or give villain a better hand. But I’d play it safe here and without a good read I’d give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. They called preflop in position and then min raised the flop. This is starting to feel like we’re beat by a set or an over pair to our 10s. I’m not ready to give up on this hand, but I don’t exactly want to open up the flood gates either. I’m kinda thinkin of going into check/call mode to play it safe.

[Reply]

samo

This type of situation is one of my most challenging and very likely a leak in my game. Options and comments – any/ all feedback welcome:

Fold – I don’t see this unless you have a clear read on the V. The flop was not bad and the V min-raise still offers attractive odds to draws, so can they be that strong, i.e. a set? Perhaps 99, but I don’t think so.

Raise – this was my initial reaction. However, if we make it 3x ($120) and get called then managing the turn oop becomes a challenge. ~45% of the time a danger card will hit. I also do not want to build a big pot with TT. Despite the 3-bet, a draw may tag along so you’re still unsure of where your hand stands.

Call – this seemed weak, however I’ll opt for this alternative and lead any non-danger turn, which will occur ~55% of the time. Otherwise check-fold to a reasonably-sized turn bet. I’m obviously hoping that the V is making a weak play for the pot given our open-raise PF, combined with our agg image. This alternative may be more economic than the raise option. Of course, the latter may get you to the river via a “free” turn.

[Reply]

Pirate21 Reply:
January 7th, 2011 at 11:51 am

I ran into the same dilemma here. Trying to figure out V’s likely holdings…
2-pr is very unlikely.
JJ-KK seem somewhat unlikely with lack of re-raise preflop – but can’t completely rule them out. AA is possible.
Some straight draws are possible (78, 45, etc…) as are spade draws.
Sets are definitely possible.
Top pair seems likely (A9, K9, T9, 89)

We’re ahead of the majority of this range but precariously so. We have very few ways for our hand to improve if we’re behind, but V has many ways to improve if we’re ahead. Add to this the fact that we have to play it OOP and the situation kinda sucks.
So, all of this leads me to two opposing views.
1) I don’t really want to build up this pot to play it OOP with just TT
2) I don’t really want to let V see another card as the majority of the deck is scary to us.

I initially voted to raise – thinking of a pretty strong raise here. But after thinking it through, I changed my mind and decided to call and play pot control. Though it feels a little week, I think we need to leave ourselves the chance to get away from this hand.

[Reply]

general johnson jameson Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 10:27 pm

samo- go to google, and search for “The AMA Theorem”. it will help you a million. i’ll give a link at the bottom of this post, but usually they get removed.

as far as this hand goes, this theorem pretty much governs it easy.

assume that he has at least bottom 2 pair, and that we have no fold equity, which also implies that with how big his stack is, we have insane implied odds to stack him if we hit a T.

i think in this case, I call, obviously, and check any turn and see what he does. if he gives a chicken shit bet (i’m talking like, 1/4) I’ll probably raise it, if its a legit bet, i’m outta there.

the main point is that of the only things he’d do this with, we’re only ahead of 2 spades, and 78, and a 9. However our image could skew this a little wider, and he could be raising with a 6, or a smaller pocket pair. However, this is okay. Because if we call here, a 6 or smaller pair will not bet again, because its unlikely we are putting more dough in with ace high.

never underestimate the bullshit hands that people will call with on the button. I would not blink twice if I saw this guy had 62h or 96h. Not all power hands have to be sets (even though we’d like them to be cuz it makes more sense). People flop goofy 2 pair hands all the time, and get paid off on them because they are so disguised. In a live tournament a month ago, I called a deep stacked MP raise from the button with 96c, mostly with the intention of taking it away because he was a weak player. I flopped open ended, he checked, i bet, he called, i turned a 5, he checked, I over bet thinking he was trying to trap with AA or KK, he went all in just like i expected, I snapped, he had a set of 7s. woops. his look when i said straight was not what he was expecting. the point is, he could have called just cuz of our aggro image with the intention of taking it away with scare cards, or doing it on boards that are unlikely to hit the aggro. sometimes though, these hands become pure value when they flop gin, and never ever dismiss that possibility.

the best advice: dont look at this as a min-raise, look at it as a raise. and try to figure out why is this guy raising us? he wants to play for more money, whatever reason that is.

plug this into your browser, it is gold:

archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=8188292

[Reply]

John Kugelman

Re-raise, fold to a 4-bet. Bet the turn if our 3-bet is flatted, no matter what card comes.

I do not want to give up the initiative at this point. The stacks are too deep to play the rest of the hand OOP without the betting lead. Our hand is near the top of our range and our very aggressive image means the villain’s range will be correspondingly wider than normal so a 3-bet can indeed get value from worse.

[Reply]

general johnson jameson Reply:
January 9th, 2011 at 11:03 pm

this is suicide flop play.

re-raising here is complete disaster. being at the top of our range here doesn’t matter when he is saying he’s got better than a pair. it is a terrible stretch to think that this guy hit a 6, decided to min-raise it for value, and then will continue to keep pumping in dollars with it just because we have an aggressive image at the moment. it is an even harder stretch to imagine that this guy is going to finally take a stand for the table, and use a 6 to play back at us with a min-raise against what he 100% expects us to do when the flop comes out, and with high certainty expects us to re-raise when he gets min-raised.

the fact that he is playing so seemingly soft against our PREDICTABLE aggression, on that flop, should raise alarm bells. he is essentially saying, yeah i know exactly how you’re going to act here in these spots, but i’m okay with it. and why is he all of a sudden okay with it in this spot of all spots?

not wanting to giving up initiative just because of image and stack size is silly. and this stubbornness, paired with the short sighted feeling that “he just doesn’t believe us” is straight up leg into wood chipper.

3 betting and folding to a 4 is awful spew, when you could call 20 and see a turn and get away right there. and if he calls the 3 bet, and lead any turn, that is straight up spew also. because again, unless this is the 1 scenario out of like 20 where he takes a stand with a 6, i don’t know what you possibly think he is calling all of that money off with against predictable aggression that a pair of tens is beating.

by continuing the outright aggression we will:
(1)90% of the time we will be losing a shit load of money wood chipping against an obvious 2 pair or better. we gain zero here.

and

(2)10% of the time we will be folding out a pair worse than tens, when he decides to “not believe us”. all we gained was an extra $20.

so only 10% of the time we’re winning, and when we do its 5 BBs.

eeeeeeek.

[Reply]

Jesper

I would 3-bet him here. Normally a min raise can mean alot of strength, but in this situation it looks kinda weak. He knows you will continuation bet most flops, so he hopes his raise will take down the pot, but he doesn’t wanna risk too much. If he had a set he would just smooth-call your bet on the flop, and give you a chance to bet on the turn again

[Reply]

Jesper

… And he can also be on a flush draw. He can do that to try make you check on the turn, so he can get 2 free cards out of just a min raise. So yea, 3-bet is the best play here.

[Reply]