Daily Hand Quiz

3-bet pre.

As played, villain’s potsized check-call on this kind of flop worries me. If he whiffed as well he would be very likely to c-bet. This is exactly how someone would play a strong pair against an aggro.
I check and if I don’t river my TPTK, I’m done with the hand.

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Major Dude Reply:
December 17th, 2010 at 8:43 am

Agreed on all points.

Our best hope is that Villain is playing a weaker, unpaired Ace (AJo) and doesn’t know how to fold. But his range is more likely to include A4s, A6s, A8, 55, Axh, etc.

His flop call tells us he got a piece of this or likes his draw (2 hearts? A7?) It would take a huge turn bet to blast him out of this hand – and then we look quite stupid if he shows up with a set, which is possible, too.

Reads are crucial in situations like this. Some players can be pushed off weak but winning hands by a double-dose of flop/turn aggression. Some can’t. Given our read on this guy, T’s line is totally correct.

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Nelson Reply:
December 17th, 2010 at 9:37 am

I agree as well for the most part. However, I don’t ALWAYS automatically reraise or 3bet/4bet etc. with AK, just for the simple fact that people really don’t believe you if you hit one and milk them with it. At the end of the hand they’re sitting there thinking “How the hell could this guy be beating me? There’s no way he has AK because he didn’t make it obvious earlier in the hand.” I’ve been paid off huge in situations like this. That being said, most of the time it is the right move to bump it up with AK for sure. Purely situational. But in this example, I agree that we’d have to make a HUGE bet to even realistically get villain off of his hand. And its just not worth it here. That’s another problem with AK for so many people. They just can’t lay it down even if they know it went from gold to garbage.

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Check. I don’t like the pot-sized flop bet, but that is done.

Hero is facing a loose opponent, so I believe it is more difficult to fold them-out by betting, especially given our agg image. We may have some show-down value, so let’s try and arrive at the river as cheaply as possible. Pot is already the size of the V stack and we don’t have a made hand yet. They may be committed, but we’re certainly not. If we miss, fold to a bet.

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Good quiz, to a point. Let’s expand it.
Scenario A;
For those that chose to fire out a bet on the turn; $2500?
what do you do when he shoves over the top?
What do you do on bricked river if he flats?

Scenario B:
For those that chose to check turn;
Ah on river and V puts out $2500?
Ah on river and V shoves?
Keep in mind V is “a little loose” ;
Could he have raised pf with Q/Jh?
Granted, the Ah could take away their nut flush draw from their hand but if they are holding A/6 A/4 or A/8 offsuit they now also hit 2 pr.
Pot size has gotten to point V is almost pot comitted.
Enjoy all the comments.
I find this scenario to be one of my bigger leaks.
3 barrel and look at V’s set?
Delay and let them catch up?
Delay and flat bricked river to see V wins with A/8 AAAARRRRRGH!!

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T Reply:
December 17th, 2010 at 2:56 pm

Scenario B: villain is pot-commited already. If he’s willing to put more in, he will have the goods more often than not. We’re going to need real good odds to call. How good is somewhat a judgment call… I’m thinking 4:1 at least.

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Flat AK preflop and then bet out twice when you whiff? Seems like the perfect way to play AK.

The hero is putting money in on precisely the wrong streets. Either 3-bet pre, or just check behind OTF and fold to a bet on the turn. Anything else is serious spew.

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_CityBorn_ Reply:
December 17th, 2010 at 3:39 pm

I agree on all counts. But here we are and the quiz is asking us what we do now. Checking is fine. Makes sense, give up, it all went wrong. I can live with that. But, the thing is, given that we’ve dug ourselves this hole, the only way out is to take another stab at it. if hes on a draw, or holding a mediocre hand, 2500 will get him off it since he knows hes committing the rest of his stack essentially. if he has us beat he’ll shove. this is a case where a relatively small bet (compared to the pot) can either take it down or give you all the info you need. we’ve represented a made hand, i think we should find out whether he likes his enough to put his tourney on the line.

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samo Reply:
December 17th, 2010 at 3:56 pm

After the pot-size bet OTF, don’t you think the 2500 bet-size looks weak, esp w/FD there? That’s the issue I have. I think any action (initiated by Hero) may commit ~40% of stack.

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_CityBorn_ Reply:
December 18th, 2010 at 8:49 am

hmm….the reason it doesnt feel weak to me is because the implication is that we’re trying to drag him into committing his tourney life. if he calls, it leaves him with so little behind that he’d have to put the rest in on the river with anything but a busted draw. any decent player will recognize that this isnt a 2500 chip decision, this is a question of whether this is the hand they want to commit it all with.

on the flipside, if he shoves, hes saying yes, i have something good enough to put my tourney life on the line, and even though its only 2k more we can fold. we cant even be sure at that point that we have any clean outs and we should cut our losses.

Major Dude Reply:
December 17th, 2010 at 6:09 pm

We had almost the exact same quiz a week ago (same stacks and hand), except that time Villain limped in pf — we raised — everyone else folded and Villain called.

I opted for your sustained aggression line that time, because I thought we had a better chance of selling Villain on the idea that we’re betting a third time with a legitimate overpair . . . and because I thought Villain was more likely to be on a punky little hand that he could shed.

This time, Villain’s a little stronger (maybe) and our story of belated aggression feels more inconsistent. We could still try to bet the turn. But it doesn’t feel as if we set it up right.

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_CityBorn_ Reply:
December 18th, 2010 at 8:39 am

im not sure i agree that our story of belated aggression feels inconsistent here. we flat call a raise in position from a loose player preflop and the flop brings middle and low cards. he checks and we fire. what happened here? we could easily have 8x, 6x, a set, etc. we have an aggressive image as well, which usually means were playing a little loose ourselves and could have hands like a/8, k/8 suited, 87s. if we were bluffing on the flop, we could easily have big cards including a queen that just got there on the turn.

i agree villain looks like he could have something, but we dont know, and wont know until we fire here. i think a 2500 bet is worth the chance to take down the 4500 pot.

I agree with T completly, check behind and see what the river brings. We tried to take it down with a pot sized bet. That didn’t work and the red lights & sirens are now going off in my living room. We have Ace high, and I don’t like to keep firing with zip when I’ve built up a decent stack. Could be V has trips, flush draw, big pair. V could have called our bet because the flop didn’t match what he expected our triple merged range to be. Take that Jungleman. Now something good for my heart, a glass of red wine.

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I agree with _CityBorn_ here. I’m not ready to assume V has the goods yet. We have the chips to put him to the test here. If we bet at least $2K, V will tell us what kind of hand he has and I think it’s worth the risk.

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