Daily Hand Quiz

awkward spot, I hate calling 10% of my stack preflop, not even knowing where I am in the hand.
we do not know, which buy-in this satty has (and is it a rebuy?),nor do we know the tendencies of the player flatcalling behind the original raiser. with so much info missing, I can’t really answer this, but I lean towards shoving all-in and prob rebuy, depending on the sattystructure

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What Markus says. I don’t like the flat for this % of my stack and there’s not enough info to answer whether to shove or not.

I guess the flat caller is usaully folding so that adds a few chips to the pot for you on average if you shove, but what about the raiser? It says aggro but what range is he on?

also, what buy-in is it and what game? I don’t play an especially high limit but if it’s say a $10 sat to the sunday million then I know the standard is AWFUL and I’m shoving all day. High stakes / different game I don’t know.

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29bb is really a tough spot for this sort of situation, but the situation it self is pretty nice. I think this is a perfect opportunity to throw the good ol’ squeeze play in. Make it 475 to go and C is going to be in a tough spot to flatcall with E still left to act. E is likely not flatting AK in CO, so we can be fairly confident that we are either way ahead of AJ-AT-KQ, moderately ahead of other broadway cards or flipping with an underpair (which in a satty, is a great spot to be in early in the game. Gotta take the chances to double up early and get some wiggle room). So that means our only concern is playerC. Unless he has QQ+, i really dont see a hand he is comfortable calling/overshoving with 3way with 2 (including Hero) to still act.

Raise to 475

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b1aze Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 5:10 am

Also forgot to add that if C does in fact come back over the top, we still have 19bb and should be willing to get into shove-fold mode quickly.

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This is a fold or raise decision. Calling prices the blinds into the pot and AQo is not the hand to play against multiple opponents.

Hero has no read on the initial caller and the blinds are yet to act. If we make it 3x ($450) with the blinds and agg raiser folding, the caller is still getting a good price to call. The raise would likely have to be AI and without a read on the opponent, I prefer to fold rather than shoulder the risk this early.

I’d raise AI with 1010+, AK.

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_CityBorn_ Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:06 am

i disagree. imo, aq is a perfectly fine hand to play multiway. in fact, other than suited connectors, its the best kind of hand to play multiway.

if the blinds want to jump in, thats fine. with or without them, we’re looking for a nice flop or an opening to steal it post flop….theyre just adding to the pot.

even your argument intended to be against raising 3x sounds better than folding. if you can get the blinds and raiser to fold and play heads up in position for a nice pot with what is likely the best hand, why would you choose to fold instead?

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samo Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:44 am

It is a raised pot with one caller, who we have no read on. Both have larger stax and we know one is agg. Calling leaves Hero totally in the dark. Additionally there is still a 22bb stack yet to act.

Let’s say we call and the blinds come along. Pot is now $750. We miss the flop on a dry board with all unders. Agg raiser leads for $500 and it folds to us – what do we do? Fold probably. I see the call as a weak play unless the plan is to play the flop agg. Otherwise the stronger move is to RAI imo.

Raising 3x – let’s say at best we make it HU with the initial caller. If they have a pair, it is a flip at best and our stack is now down 30% at a minimum if we don’t hit the flop, which we will miss 2/3 of the time. Of course AK also has us dominated.

In a cash game I tend to raise this hand in position to see where it stands.

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general johnson jameson Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:44 pm

I have to say I’m really shocked to see you opting to fold here. Really? I realize folding is the safest play considering we have zero reads, but would you really fold a strong Ace on the button getting ~5:1? The price alone is better than our odds of hitting the flop, this should be at the least a call with anything down to almost middle off suit connectors. I say this because there is zero reason to think the big stack is going to make a move in a pot that has shown strength. He has cheap lead, and zero reason to get out of line right here. And if the short BB shoves, he isn’t kidding, which he was doing regardless of what anyone else did. Unless those 2 wake up with JJ+, I cannot imagine a scenario here where this doesn’t go to the flop at least 4:1, considering just their position and stack sizes. Folding just seems way too weak and passive.

Having a strong ace doesn’t always mean we need to raise. This isn’t a limped pot remember, and especially after a raise and a call, we have zero reason to think we have the best hand at this table right now. But I think this hand is at least worth 150 chips at this point. Clearly more than zero chips, Maybe not 1440, but at least 150.

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samo Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 5:37 pm

Really.

I think the 5-1 odds are muted by the potential spewing that may come in a multi-player pot. We could hit a Q on dry board like Q75, and the SB wakes-up with an open-end straight draw (b/c they entered on the cheap) and boom Hero is CR and loses total control of the pot. The opponents need not even have a made hand to pressure PF. Again, not saying that raising is bad, specifically AI, it is just that the call invites weaker hands to enter and gives us no info.

There are still players to act. If Hero decides to raise, what about the raiser and caller. For that matter what about the blinds, one of whom has 22 bbs. We have a read on 1 of 4 potential opponents. Perhaps one will view our move as a squeeze attempt and 4-bet. Then what – just lost 30% of stack.

I figure why even waste 11% of stack. Better to let it go or make a bold move AI. AA unlikely, and only AK and KK have us crushed.

As I mentioned, in a cash game I’d tend to 3-bet here.

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I’m not going broke with ace high. I see too many people willing to go broke with any pp so I call here in position. If I dont catch something on the flop I will let it go.

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I’m not raising for 1/3 of my stack and then giving up if we don’t flop a pair, which happens 2/3 of the time. Folding to a 4-bet sucks. If you’re planning on folding to a shove then you’re saying the 3-bet is a bluff, which it is not.

The only options are call, raise/call, or shove. (Basically any option that involves folding is right out.)

Which of those is right depends on our opponents. “An aggressive player” is not much of a read. Loose aggressive? Tight aggressive? Folds to 3-bets or never folds after raising? These are the things I want to know, not just “aggressive”.

Anyways, readless I lean towards shoving. If either player plays poorly out of position–for example by flatting 3-bets too often and check/folding if they miss–then I will raise to 375 and bet most flops. It depends.

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I call. I don’t want to invest too much this early just to miss the flop completely. If we hit either one of our cards on the flop we can probably get it in ahead. And if we miss we can let it go and still have 1290 in our stack – which is plenty to do something with.

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i like a flat call. raising commits your tourney life to this hand regardless of whether you raise 3x or shove. if we raise 3x and get called, we’ll miss 2/3 of the time, and now stack sizes are awkward. thats not where i want to be most of the time post flop. i also dont want to shove with a/q. granted, it has a fair chance of taking it down now, but its too risky considering there is some strength being shown in front and the blinds are yet to act. ultimately, a flat works….i dont mind playing multiway in position with a good hand. the cards fall right and you can rake a nice pot, if not, ok, so you only lost 150. lots of other hands to be played.

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Pirate21 Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:37 am

I agree with _CB_.
I’m not folding AQ in this spot (standard raise + agg V = I’m probably ahead), but I’m also not committing 1/3 or more of my stack early in the tourney with AQ. I’ll call and try to see a flop in position. If the blinds r/r, I get to see everyone else act before I have to decide what to do.

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Major Dude Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:51 am

Actually, I’d argue that calling is riskiest. You want to give other players an opportunity to make a mistake. If you call here, the blinds are priced in to play a lot of second-rate but potentially very nasty hands – 78s; 33; J9, etc. Now you’ve got a much bigger risk that if the flop comes Qxx or even Axx — you aren’t really ahead. The only way you’ll find out is after a lot of chips get in the middle.

I voted raise. Thin the field, turn the blinds into dead money in the middle. The debate on a 3x raise or all-in is a close call; it would depend on reads and how fast the blinds go up. If it’s a turbo, push. If it’s a slower pace, maybe raise 3x.

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b1aze Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:36 pm

I personally HATE just a flat call here. I would rather flat-call here with 87s than AQo any day. If we let either of the blinds take a stab at the now-t525 pot by just 3bet shoving, are we calling? Any thinking player in the blinds with any kind of a hand is probably going to want to try to add upwards of 50% to his stack (BB) by just 3bet shoving here.

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general johnson jameson Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:24 pm

Watch out here though, you kinda countered your own point: A thinking player who has a hand and makes a move, probably has a hand that is already ahead of ours, so what are we upset about? Unless you’re considering QJ a hand, but I don’t think you are

Plus, the big stack isn’t going to be looking at making any moves here, he probably just wants to see a flop at 4:1 on his dime.

And the small stack, if he shoves his insta-call stack into 4 people who have shown strength, without a doubt has the goods, and that means he was going in regardless of whatever we did, so we shouldn’t theorize him too heavily.

Remember that this isn’t a limped pot, strength has already been shown twice before our turn. There’s no reason to suspect anyone getting out of line in this pot yet.

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John Kugelman Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:40 pm

“if we raise 3x and get called, we’ll miss 2/3 of the time, and now stack sizes are awkward.”

By 3-betting preflop, our opponent is generally making a mistake if he flats instead of shoving or folding. Stacks are too shallow for him to flat profitably.

If he does flat our 3-bet, we now have the initiative. So instead of folding when we don’t pair up, we can make HIM fold when HE doesn’t pair up.

With 30BB or less calling raises is usually a leak. It is almost always better to raise or fold. Aggression beats luck every day of the week. A good maxim: “The worst play in NL Hold’em is a call because you can’t decide between raising and folding.”

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I like a lot of the discussion so far. And I agree that calling is kind of risky, but we should be clear on a few things: first, yes we want them to make mistakes like MD said, but we don’t necessarily need them to be making from the very beginning of the hand to be profitable. If we flopped quads, and the opponent bet at us, correct theory would say we re-raise to induce a mistake call. But would we really do that right now on the flop? Not a chance. Obviously this is an extreme example, but the principle doesn’t change. It is very difficult to discuss mistake making theory in a potential 5 way pot, but it is equally as impractical to talk mistakes when other actions make us pot committed and we have to proceed no matter what.

second, let’s be careful what we consider dead money. If C and E limped, the pot would be 175, and if we blasted it from the button, we could easily consider all 175 of that dead money. But C raised, and E called, so that cannot be considered dead money. Which means that of a 375 chip pot, only 75 of it is dead, and that is not good enough at all to justify a 3 bet from the button for at least ~450 in effort just to secure a piddly 75. (let alone the other potential problems that come with raising in this spot).

This is one of those situations where no path is too clear, and we have to choose the lesser of 3 evils: folding – AQ on the button is way too weak. What more do we want? 3 bet 3x – this opens the door for reshoves and we become quickly committed. 3 bet all in – we give up our position in hopes of taking it all down now, but with 4 people still to act. This also reduces our range… AA,KK maybe QQ wouldn’t do this. And if it folds around to C and he calls, we’re in bad shape, and if it folds to E, he will be calling here with any pair, and probably no ace worse than ours. We’re risking 1440 to win 375. So we need all 4 of these players to fold 1 time in 4 just to BREAK EVEN. I think it’s going to be difficult to get folds from all 4 more than 25% of the time.

Calling seems to be the best of the bad choices. People aren’t thrilled with 10% of their stack going in, but we’re going to be getting at least 4:1, maybe even 5:1 on it. Now, unless this is the 1% of the time where someone flops 2 pair, or the 1/8 where someone hits their miracle set (considering our hand can pay them off if we hit too), unless C has AK, our ace is going to be good all day long if it hits, because AA, and AK would re-raise if any of the others had it. Not to mention we get to see what C does first.

There’s nothing wrong with raising to thin the field, but how about we do that after we see a flop, and more importantly what the 2 volatile blinds wanna do: one is the table chip leader, and the other is a shove-ready short stack. Let’s not commit anymore than we need to to stay in at this point until we get to see these 2 act. Don’t forget, there has already been a raise and a call, strength has been shown in this pot already, we don’t need to flex in this spot.

Call, but keep the caution flags up if we hit in a 5 way pot. If not, and there is action, let it go. We got 5:1 on button with strong ace. We made no errors. Let’s have the flop throw a bucket of cold water on our hot hand, instead of doing it ourselves with a bad decision.

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Lots of good points, General . . . one quibble. (And, by the way, I had way too much fun last night discovering who General Johnson Jameson really is — what a scream!)

My quibble: the chance of any unpaired hand hitting two pair on the flop is 2.1% — and there’s also more mischief from a 1.4% chance that a garbage hand becomes trips on a paired board. . . . We can also bite our nails a little at the slim but not zero chances of the blinds catching a straight draw, flush draw, or made straight, made flush, set, etc. Add it all up, and there’s maybe a 5% chance apiece that we’ll be very sorry we let each of the blinds play if we just call.

Maybe that’s a risk worth taking. But it is a risk.

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general johnson jameson Reply:
September 22nd, 2010 at 4:43 pm

im glad you found out who i am haha. its true there are some risks but theyre small like you said with the set trips or two pair. remember though that those draws you mentioned are all punishable easily by just betting a bad price into them. this causes them to finally make those mistakes you spoke of earlier, chasing a bad price draw. not to mention they are getting zero implied odds with the chase because the stacks arent high enough to justify it. so if they chase and hit oh well they played bad and lucked out. we wont have made a mistake they will have. the thing is, what if C has ak? then we are making a mistake by raising to out the blinds. but we are also making a mistake by only calling and pricing the blinds in. so in theory we cant win either way. see what i mean by mistake theory gets difficult in multiway pots? the best we can do is keep it small and wait to apply more identifiable mistake spots.

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