Daily Hand Quiz

i put all the moneyyyys in the pot

[Reply]

Blegh. I usually hate this spot but usually see it from EP and its almost always AA unfortunately. If V is a drooler, he could have just about anything and he thinks that hes taking down a monster pot right now if he can get us to fold, which he wont. We are only crushed by AA obviously and its very difficult to say “oh, he definately has aces,” but little fishies try to get tricky with them sometimes. Id probably 4bet shove it, as if we flat, our stack is going to be like 1.5x the pot, which isnt really a great ratio as we will be strictly shoving any non-Ace flop. Get it in i would say, but again, this may be a leak of mine.

[Reply]

Wow 34% fold. I am reraising here. From the bb I might raise a bunch of limpers with a range of hands. V might be ok against a good part of that range. Out of position I am going to put more chips in now. In position I might call and make sure there is no ace on the flop. If v has aces then so be it. Next. Last time I saw this play v had jj.

[Reply]

I’d call.

Hero has a solid image, so BB pop is usually 10-10+, or AK imo. Hero has two Ks, so I’d toss AK for the V, and say AA, QQ, JJ at best. Beating 2 of 3, but it is early. Call and see a flop with a chance to still get away. We have no read, so perhaps the V is over-playing AQ, willing to race vs. unders.

If we were later in the tourney, pre-$, I’d shove.

Fold – certainly could be up against AA, but with no read on the V, I see this as rather weak.

[Reply]

b1aze Reply:
August 13th, 2010 at 8:11 am

So you flat about 20% of your stack and an ace falls. What do you do then? And if no ace falls, but you get both QJX? I would rather take the decision aspect out of it when we are short stacked compared to the eventual pot and get it in. V has already shown that he can be potentially trappy, which granted when IP is tougher to do, but i still dont see why we would want to have to make some really difficult decisions on ANY flop besides a King.

[Reply]

samo Reply:
August 13th, 2010 at 8:29 am

The blinds are at 25/50 indicating the tourney just began. I tend to give more credit to an unknown at this stage, which may allow me to be out-played from time-to-time. I totally see a shove as a viable move due to the stax.

I check the A on the flop. If V does not have an A, they may check as well. If all unders flop, yes the stack is going in. If they have AA, the result is the same as p/f shove.

[Reply]

b1aze Reply:
August 13th, 2010 at 9:27 am

I realize that the blinds are what they are and yes, its early, but if the result is going to be the same either way if unders hit, why not put the pressure back on him? I think that being OOP and having really no true idea where we are at turns this just over the shove-line. I never not want to get it aipf with KK to be honest, even to potential and maybe probable AA.

i think you have to jam considering stack sizes. if its kk vs aa, well thats just a cooler. yes, this move is usually aa, but it can also not be. we have kings. we’re crushing anything but one hand in the deck. if he doesnt have aces, he’ll either fold, sending a message to the table that we’re not to be trifled with. or he’ll call and we’ll have a good chance to double up. if he has aces, at least we still have 20% chance to get lucky.

i know its early, and my general policy is go easy early in an mtt, but calling is awkward. we’ll be out of position, not knowing still if we’re behind aa or now he couldve outflopped us as well. when youre crushing everything other than aces, and calling makes the situation very awkward as it does here, i think we’ve got to put it in now.

folding is just never ever happening unless i have a handful of chips and its the bubble.

[Reply]

Waste_of_Paint Reply:
August 13th, 2010 at 11:38 am

One thing I don’t understand about your analysis is this… you say this move is usually AA, but also that we should shove. What is the sense in shoving in a situation when we are usually behind?

[Reply]

general johnson jameson Reply:
August 14th, 2010 at 1:09 am

He also said that it couldn’t be AA though… The guy could have limped some PP, and thought our BB raise was generic and decided to get cute. There are a whole world of possibilities, I don’t need to describe any of them, but more importantly otherwise you need to realize that in no way are we “usually behind” here. Look at all that would need to happen to be behind:

We would need no one to raise in EP.
We would need to have a player get dealt aces: 1:221.
We would need that player to then limp those aces. (Usually very unorthodox and uncommon, unless there is a super aggressive raiser still to act, in which this case there is no mention of one)
We would need us to get dealt KK: 1:221.
We would need no one else to raise in between MP and BB.

The odds of being dealt aces vs. kings alone makes it so improbable it isn’t even worth considering, let alone all of the other things that need to occur simultaneously to put us into the dreaded position. The amount of money we will make by treating KK as AA preflop WAY SURPASSES the amount of money we will save by being scared that we are up against AA. It is just like every time you see a flop. If you flop top 2 pair are you going to be scared to bet because you’re afraid the other guy has a set? You can’t constantly be afraid that the other guy has the next best thing. Preflop KK is the same as AA, we have to bet hard with our 2 pair, and when we have AK on a board with QQQAx we still have to bet as if quads don’t exist. There are unfortunate moments where the other guy does actually have the almost impossible next best thing, and that is what he described as a cooler.

Gotta shove it here…. Deftones style.

[Reply]

Waste_of_Paint Reply:
August 14th, 2010 at 1:23 am

Oh I agree entirely, I was just playing devil’s advocate because Cityborn used the word ‘usually’. I don’t think this is AA more often than not, there are tons of other hands in villain’s range. I’d be a little more wary if the limp/raise was from under the gun, but I’d still be shoving ten times out of ten.

Seriously, fold.
Don’t waste a $150 buy-in on one of the oldest donk traps in the book.

Mind you, in cash games and low-stake tournaments this is a definite shove, but this early in this kind of tournament, no thanks. There will be more good hands, and better spots for worse hands.

Call won’t work either because what will we do on the flop? Lead/fold?

[Reply]

Well without a solid read on villain this is a tough spot. I definitely have seen people play aces this way – mostly online. If we call and see a flop we still have about 2K in our stack to decide what to do with. But to be honest I really wouldn’t have any idea where I’m at. I think folding preflop is way too weak. So its down to calling or shoving. Since we’ll be out of position, with no read on villain, I say shove. If he’s got aces so be it.

[Reply]

If we are up against AA then tough luck, you want all the money in the pot. If you are willing to fold KK preflop you have no shot at going deep in a tourney.

[Reply]

this one is pretty easy. I think calling would be ok but only if we were in position heads up against a known aggressive player that we could rely on to hang himself. but since we know nothing and out of position gotta ship it here. when it comes to preflop kk may as well be aces. we are only losing to 1 hand and if it is there so be it. the money you lose in that situation isn’t even close to the money you gain by proceeding as if it doesn’t exist. we have no inflame were out of pos. negate the pos disadvantage and apply max pressure against him and ship it right here. if you call why would you want to give him control, be out of position, and with zero info? that is a stupid situation to put yourself in. and to the people folding, I’m just assuming you’re joking.

[Reply]

Jam, no questions asked. Those of you remarking on the buy-in of the tournament.. if you care about the buy-in, you’re most likely playing outside your bankroll. Honestly, in *most* situations the villain could show me his aces and I’d still put the money in (that said, this isn’t one of those situations — I’m thinking cash game or mid- to late-stage tourney play).

If you’re truly bankrolled for a $150 tourney (50x the buy-in or $7500), you can make the $150 back pretty quick in a solid cash game session ($7500/20 = $375, meaning you’re playing between NL200 or NL400 cash games).

Fold simply isn’t an option, and calling is just moronic considering the stack sizes.

[Reply]

Who in their right mind is flatting a raise here? How can you pin an unknown opponent on Aces because they make an awful play early in moderately high buy in? Stars runs so many satys to every tournament and obviously there are unequitable players who make this play alot of times with blah+. I do tend to give more credit to an unknown than most though so I will say 99+ AQss+, maybe any pr. Who knows? you have no reads at all so the only correct play is shove obv IMO.

[Reply]

Chris Reply:
August 16th, 2010 at 3:02 pm

AKo too obv.

[Reply]

its a play I make, and I’m pretty certain villian has AA, sometimes AK. Getting 2-1 odds on call, If I spike a King, I’m golden, if not, gotta see what he does on the flop. I’m wishing this was a live hand, so I could see the way he bets on the flop, and how he made the reraise,

I think it’s early enough to at least call, Reraise preflop definately lets you know if you are beat or not, so that’s not a bad idea either

[Reply]