QJ on the CO, tight image, NL MTT

DailyHandQuiz

Game type: $20 rebuy tournament, PokerStars
Stage of tourney: Rebuy period closed
Your image: Tight
Your hand: Q♦J♣

The setup: You’ve got a steadily shrinking stack in this $20 rebuy tournament. You’ve been pretty quiet for the last few orbits, card dead and generally facing some sort of poor action in front.

This hand the table folds to you in the CO. You have an offsuit QJ.

What’s your play?

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18 COMMENTS (Jump to comment form)

I dont understand the raise as that leaves you with approx 9-10bbs left. all in or fold imo.

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Groundhog day

Fold. Wait for a better spot. With 15 bb all in seems too much. Odds are you will be behind at least one of the three v left to act.

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Morat

You’re only behind A or K high hands, and there’s about 60% chance that noone has one of these.
Even if they have it, they are not that likely to play, unless it’s a good ace or king. The SB is my only slight concern, the others wouldn’t risk elimination with semi-trash against a tight player IMO.
Even if they call with semi-trash, you’re only about 3:2 dog.
My only concern is being dominated (AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, JJ+), but that’s a tiny part of the possible hands, even with 3 opponents. Being short-stacked, the 1800 in the middle is worth a try.
I would only raise normally, if I wanted a 3bet. Shove and put the maximum pressure on them.

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_CityBorn_

i like a standard raise. with a smallish stack and a tight quiet image, it looks strong and people will give you credit. i make it about 2200 to go. if the sb wants to play out of position, im ready to rock. my only concern is the bb finding a good hand and shoving. ill have to figure im beat, but because his range is a bit open and im prob either a 60/40 or a coin flip, ill make the call end up with 5300 in the middle i didnt want to put in there. but hey, thats poker, gotta make your moves and take risks sometimes.

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John Kugelman

This is a shove or fold spot. Raising to 3x is pretty bad given our stack size. It’s just inviting someone to resteal. We aren’t going to fold if reraised so why give them the illusion of fold equity?

All in.

And yeah, do NOT raise/fold. Never, ever do that with under 15BB. Shove or fold, or raise/call at the worst.

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Nelson Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 8:19 am

Kugs, I was thinkin to maybe raise to about 2000 hoping for a shove/reraise with crap on a steal, so then I could call and still be ahead. I think the open shove is good too but really the only way someone will call is if we’re killed or flipping at best right? If we just want the blinds and don’t want to see a flop then the open shove sounds good. But if we want to double up or bust I think enticing someone to make a play is the way to go with a little raise preflop. Who knows, maybe we’ll just get a caller and then we can shove almost any flop and make a nice grab…

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John Kugelman Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 9:24 am

This is mainly a steal play so I don’t want to gamble unnecessarily. I specifically do NOT want someone “making a play” with A4 or KT since those hands are in fact ahead of us. Shoving eliminates any fold equity these hands might think they have.

Yes, shoving looks like a steal, but that doesn’t matter all that much as we can’t be re-bluffed. Somebody actually has to wake up with a hand to call us, and we’ve got probably 35-40% equity even when we’re called.

Note that 15BB is around the point that I will begin shoving nearly 100% of my non-folding hands. I am tight but VERY aggressive. And yes, I’ll even open shove JJ+/AK, I don’t usually try to trap with these.

I’ll only raise normal if the table is particularly weak-tight and won’t resteal over my raise without premium hands. Then and *only* then will I raise hands like QJo and fold to a re-raise, or raise KK instead of shoving because they’d fold to shoves too much. Against a reasonable table, though, these plays are sub-optimal.

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Nelson Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 9:41 am

Damn Kugs – spot on again. I have a feeling you’re going to do well at the WSOP this year. In the past 2 years I’ve gotten married, bought a house and a car – so my WSOP dreams are out of commission for this year. Hell, right now I can’t even scrape together a few hundred bucks to try to grow a roll. I just keep reminding myself everyday – At least I’m not pissing money away anymore paying rent, and I don’t have to deal with annoying roomates anymore.

_CityBorn_ Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 9:51 am

if this was purely a steal play, we might as well have atc. here we have a decent hand. standard raise looks stronger, therefore may induce folds or calls for less than all in where we can use position. think potential stop and go, or hit and get called. as opposed to the shove which looks a little desperate, and when called puts our tourney at risk almost def as a dog.

John Kugelman Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 10:41 am

Not necessarily. QJo has 41% equity against a top 20% hand range. A garbage hand like 73o has 29% equity. That’s a significant difference.

More importantly though is thinking about not what hand we specifically have but what range of hands we’d play in this position. If you shove ATC then you’re shoving every time it’s folded to you and players will figure this out and call you super light.

However let’s say we shove the top 15% of hands here and fold the rest. Then our range has excellent equity when we’re called by a similarly tight range. We’re not crushed when we’re called. QJo is in the top 15% of hands, so while it is on the weaker end of that range, we should be shoving it because we’d also be shoving all of the other stronger hands as well. If we shove ATC and get called by a top 15% range, though, we’re dog meat.

IMHO shortstack poker is not about specific hands so much as it is about hand ranges. At about 15-20BB you can no longer expect to play postflop poker. Any raise you put it commits you to the pot. You should be prepared to go all the way any time you enter a pot with such a short stack. And when that’s true, when postflop play is gone, shortstack strategy really more or less boils down to what hand ranges you’re playing.

_CityBorn_ Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 2:53 pm

i disagree with several of these points. personally, im not shoving the super strong hands here. id really only be tempted to shove hands like mid pairs because theyre strong enough now, but not after a flop. which is obvious, and what most good v’s would figure. q/j isnt strong enough now to like the prospect of getting called by high cards which makes up the bulk of v’s calling range so i wouldnt want to seem like im holding a mid pair or weak ace, or any of the usual holdings that would be shoving here. a standard raise looks more threatening, because id be standard raising stronger hands.

i also strongly disagree with the idea that if you have 15-20 bb’s your only moves are fold and shove. in many live tourneys, late stages are full of stacks between 15-20 bb’s. sometimes thats not far below the table (or tourney) average. those that can steal for less, or make plays that boost their stack without being all in all the time are the ones that survive and become stronger stacks. we’re not shoving over a raise here….we’re the opener, and 15 bb’s is plenty of chips in this spot. instead of shoving all in with hands in the top 15%, id rather standard raise those hands so i can still induce folds, but also give myself a chance to make more than the blinds when i have a big hand or hit a flop in position.

Dont get me wrong, I hear what youre saying, I just have a different approach here, and im usually not considered a “pretty bad” player.

John Kugelman Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 3:26 pm

np np — I think we’re seeing a live vs. online dichotomy, that’s the big thing. Live players don’t resteal light anywhere near as much as online players do, nor are they anywhere near as aggressive preflop. In a live tourney I’m definitely singing a different tune. I with ya there, CB!

_CityBorn_ Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 5:02 pm

hmmm….good point. i wasnt thinking about it being a 20 dollar online rebuy tourney, and that is definitely a significant factor. there will be a lot more aggression and restealing indeed…

Pirate21

I’d raise to around 2800-3000. AI looks like an obvious steal attempt and will encourage BB to shove with a wide range. Smaller raise is begging to be played back by button or SB.

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Muck_Miser

My question is this…. what is the point of a raise here? We think we have the best hand? Trying to check on the next set of betting – the turn? Bluff to Steal the Blinds?

Obviously the equity we have built up by folding and being considered “tight” is the pay-off here when we go all in. I wouldn’t want to see a flop…. just give the blinds so I can go back to playing tight….. If someone has A J and calls then that is the way it goes….. I don’t see the point in 4x to go because you don’t want to see a flop, as J Q is a marginal hand. All-in expecting the fold….

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Pirate21 Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 11:29 am

I agree iwth your general premise – I don’t really want to see a flop. The question now becomes about what bet gives the best chance of that outcome. If I’m playing a tight player who shoves an unraised pot in position, it makes me suspicious. However, if I’m playing a tight player who makes a substantial bet but with FE left behind, I’m a little more nervous about calling because it feels like that player doesn’t mind being called and is probably shipping it post flop.
A lot of this has to do with more specific dynamics than we’re privvy to in this quiz, so there may be times when the RAI will be better – and maybe even some when flatting or raising small would be better – hard to say when you haven’t been at the table, but given the info we have, I like a sizeable bet with chips left behind.

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Loki

Not enough chips to play around with, and you have 4 hands until you lose 1/6 of your stack to blinds.
If you fold your next 4 hands will be T6, 73, 82 and K4. You will be begging for QJ on both knees.
If you raise and get a caller you are going to get it A/I anyway so what’s the difference?

Shove it in.

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samo

I’m folding. No showdown value and worries of spewing.

Agree with several of the posters – fold or AI. Calling invites a steal by the remaining players, and raising for less than AI may invite the BB to shove. Latter removes hero’s position advantage. Additionaly, if the button calls, you are oop and likely need to c-bet the flop.

Have a way to go to catch the bigger stacks, and yes, this may be the time to try and get lucky, but prefer to be a bit more patient.

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