Daily Hand Quiz

Fold? Really? Seems clear call to me. Since BB ” raise” was less than v raise, v can’t reraise if we call right? So we call 11k for a shot at 45-50 k and potentially all of v chips. Worst case collude with v and check it down. Call.

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I would fold. If it was just me and BB I would call, but since there is another player, no since in calling. Get away with 2.5 BB’s down

Best Case Cenario is if the BB had a lower pair, say 9′s or lower, which he most likely hands. However if he has J Q and the other respected player has A K then you have 12 cards that may potentially crush you…. Too big a risk, especially if one of them has an over-pair. I would erase it in my mind that I ever had jacks and move on…. )

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_CityBorn_ Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:27 am

we have jj, so the most possible overs we would count is 9, not 12. if both players have overs, they are also sharing outs about 99% of the time. that would be an ok scenario for us. tripling our investment if we dodge 8 cards aint a bad deal. plus we can always spike the jack. we’re about 44% to win. ill take that.

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BB is essentially risking his stack to double up with less than the 10BB stack that he had. I can see BB shoving with almost any suited A, any pair, or any paint period. I cannot see CO wanting to toss in any more than the ~5k left he has to call the bet, so unless CO has a monster (KK-AA), he would probably be willing to check it down. You are getting good odds on your call, but i would not necessarily want to try to iso right now. I would call in hopes that CO will flat, see what the flop brings, and check it down if the flop is too scary. No reason to try to risk essentially all of your chips vs 3rd stack at the table.

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I’m folding.
E is calling no matter what unless we shove and calling invites him to shove and isolate.

We could shove, but it’s a lot of chips to put at risk and I think either player could have QQ+ here.

We have a healthy stack. No need to risk this much on JJ against this much aggression IMO.

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b1aze Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 9:55 am

Maybe thats what he thinks we WANT him to do? I see that, plenty of times, an initial raiser with a very strong hand will flat a 4bet shove in hopes that the other player will then also shove in an attempt to isolate. If he saw it as a strategic flat call out of us, he would be weary of also shoving and risking his close-to-the-money tournament.

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_CityBorn_ Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:22 am

he cant reraise. the bb’s all in is less than a full raise.

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Morat Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 1:31 pm

My thoughts exactly. One addition: I don’t know which V is the “respected online player” but BB should know that he’s got no FE. Therefore, 4betting pre must be a great hand, I think his range is AK and QQ+.
Calling is bad, since we have like 44% equity if only overcards are present (AQ, AK), but it falls to 17% if QQ+ shows up. We are vulnarable to a bluff if any overcard shows up, but we can easily loose even on a low flop.
Player ‘E’ can be 3 betting much lighter, but I don’t think we should fight much for a pot when we will be flipping with BB at best. Practically we have to shove if we want to price out ‘E’. I don’t want to risk my stack for a pot that I’m 55% to win at best. Fold.

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Shove. We have the nuts. You’re all a bunch of nits!

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Morat Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 2:00 pm

I think one shorty player being in a 4bet all-in changes the situation somewhat, but you know… it’s just a nit’s opinion.

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tough spot. i think im flatting.

its tough because i think the BB has a real hand. he knows E is going to call him so hes not going to war with junk. the good thing here is E cant reraise so we can see a flop and evaluate. unfortunately we’re out of position, so if unders come and we bet, we probably fold out E and make no more money. but we have to bet to find out where we stand and not allow any overs to outdraw us. that means we will win the main pot if we’re stronger than the BB or find out immediately that we’re crushed if E sticks around. if overs come, Im checking it down, and hoping E plays nice. Its a tough call, but I think with BB’s shortish stack he’d be happy to get it in with any big ace, and pairs 99 and up. we’re ahead of that range and the odds are good, so im playing a little poker here and seeing how it goes…

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Nelson Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:32 am

I like this line! Sounds like the sensible thing to do. I’m hoping we’ll check it down and my Jacks will still be good in the end. No matter what happens I don’t think I’m risking my tournament life with Jacks here.

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I’m raising, ~$48k.

I think hero’s hand strength is under-estimated by the CO. Probably up against Ax/smaller pr in the blind. Still giving the v 2-1 odds to call, but I think they’re folding. Perhaps willing to do battle w/short-stacked blinds, but w/hero repping a big pr I expect a fold.

Folding JJ w/agg image seems weak in this scenario. Time to push-back imo.

Calling is an option, but I think you’re more vulnerable if the CO decides to re-pop.

Raising small prices-in a greater range of the CO hands.

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Pirate21 Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 1:20 pm

If you’re raising 48K, why not just shove?
You don’t want a call right? And you’re pretty well committed if V shoves.

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samo Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 3:10 pm

Correct, the 48K is a bit of posturing … would call-off the rest if v shoved … ~18K into ~145K.

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I think everyone is forgetting that this a “well-respected” online player. They wouldn’t over-bet you unless they had at least A K, but more than likely have 10 10 or higher, heck they might have J J…. I still say fold and forget about the 2.5 BB’s you have invested…. due to the fact this is a highly respected player and the buy in was high $150….

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Pirate21 Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 12:50 pm

I’m with you. I can think of a lot of scenarios where I would make the call, but not this one.

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John Kugelman Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 1:47 pm

Thinking a good player only 3-bets TT+/AK in position is way off base.

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Excuse the semi-topical rant, but I’ve had this brewing inside of me for a few weeks.

To many of the regular posters who’ve posted on this page: no offense but IMHO you all tend to play a little too weak/tight. You try a bit too hard to avoid risky spots. Tournament life is, frankly, not all that important.

Folding is safe but makes me ill. Just calling basically turns our hand face up (hi, I have TT/JJ, please let’s just see a flop). If we call we let the other player shove his AK/TT hands and fold us out when we’d be flipping. We let him call with his marginal 3-betting hands like AQ and 99 and also call with anything he was 3-betting light with, such as suited connectors or small PPs.

I urge all of you not to be overly risk averse. Against tough players you can’t win just by nut peddling and making easy folds. You can’t just think about the two cards you have but also need to consider what range of hands they’re playing, what the game dynamic is like, and sometimes play some non-nut hands strongly or make big bluffs when the time is right.

I’m not even saying that shoving here is the right play or that folding is wrong. But if your immediate reaction is, “oh my god, they could have QQ+, I’ll just wait for a better spot,” I urge you to consider all your options carefully and not be so quick to give up.

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_CityBorn_ Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 3:09 pm

i agree with everything youre saying, except, for real….player E cannot reraise! the bb’s all in is less than a full raise. that changes the situation enough that calling here is the better move imo. most likely postflop E would be willing to check it down or fold to a bet with missed high cards since its a dry sidepot. but i understand both the raise and fold arguments and theres valid reasons to do any of the above.

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Pirate21 Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 3:53 pm

OK, I’ll take the bait John – but let me first say I respect your comments and perspective and have learned a lot reading your posts. So, while I’m debating this point – I do so humbly.

My vote to fold this hand is not because I’m afraid of playing JJ vs a reraise. I can see the point of shoving and frankly, I’d do that before I’d call (or raise small).
But there’s other factors in this hand.
1 – not just a reraise, but a reraise and a shove on top of it. Either could be raising light for various reasons, but QQ+ and overcards are well within the range of both.
2 – our stack size vs. the table
3 – read on V (I assume player E)
4 – tourney nearing the bubble

Given all of these factors, I chose not to go to war with JJ in this spot.

So, with all that said I think you’re probably right on some accounts. I tend to play what I would term cautiously aggressive and sometimes give opponents too much credit, so thanks for pointing it out from time to time.

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John Kugelman Reply:
April 12th, 2010 at 6:14 am

“player E cannot reraise! the bb’s all in is less than a full raise. that changes the situation enough that calling here is the better move imo.”

I thought the rule is that betting is reopened if the shortstack puts in at least 50% of a legal raise. So I treated it as betting being open if we call. I might be wrong, I think that’s how Stars operates at least. Dunno about FTP. Yeah, if we can’t be re-raised then that’s hugely different.

“4 – tourney nearing the bubble”

I tend to look for opportunities TO shove on people when the bubble approaches. Hehe, maybe I overdo it. Might be a tad reckless.

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NEW QUUUUUUUIIIIIIIIIIIIZZZZZZZZZZ!

In this spot we are at least in coin flip situation of one player and also there is big possibility of on over pair. Why risk almost whole stack in coin flip situation and also if we call there is possibility of reraising again so it would be than instant fold and also we are out of possition.
So in my opinion instant fold.

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player E cannot reraise if you call….for the billionth time. i cant believe how many people are eliminating call as an option based on this incorrect point. -which has been addressed several times already in this quiz.

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You guys/girls ever heard of the old “sandwich steal” play? Well now you have. And most of you fell for it. Even more likely since opponent is good, in the BB and needs chips. V could have a HUGE range here because this is a nice way to make 2 opponents fold.
Repop it to isolate V and enjoy your healthy stack. Player E will probably only call your AI re-raise if he/she has AA/KK. Considering the HUGE range of hands he/she could have, it’s not going to happen.
Sure, it would be nice to call, have E call then check it down and knock someone out. But lately no one seems to want to do this any more so why bother.

@John: totally correct. I think people want to avoid making the play that costs their entire stack because then they look stupid in an online forum. And the easiest way to do that is argue for folding a lot.

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Pete Reply:
April 10th, 2010 at 6:42 pm

lol. E never folds any of his range unless we ship. Have you actually looked at the stack sizes?

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Loki Reply:
April 11th, 2010 at 12:45 pm

exactly. that’s why you ship. called by AA/KK, fold out everything else.

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Call. And open farrell the flop.

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If you fold — what would be your calling/raising range?

Given our image, CO is probably rising us relatively light and BB knows that — so his shoving range does not need to be that narrow at all. He must be counting on getting a call from CO, who has to put in another 5k. Since we’re deep AND as CO cannot shove if we call, I’d say let’s take the flop and check it down. Folding JJ here looks really nitty.

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