A shove has become the standard move for a lot of players in this spot, and it’s not hard to see why. With 12 outs, you’re in fine shape against a lot of hands that might call, your bet is large enough that it should force out a good chunk of better hands (and even some stronger heart draws), and the pot is already built a reasonable amount.

However, since the shove is now standard, it’s lost some it’s power, since slightly weaker combo draws like this one do rely on a hint of fold vig to be profitable. That’s why I’d propose flat calling here and then leading again for 75% of pot on all blank turns. You’re not getting a bad direct price to flat call here at a little over 2.5-1, and I think the re-lead looks incredibly strong and gives you a better chance to take the pot down than the all in re-raise. Plus, you may gain a little deceptive value when your draw does make, as many players expect the draw to re-shove on the flop.

What actually happened: You raised to 5k and South pushed for the rest of it. You called, South showed KQ for top pair, and you failed to improve.

KQ is the worst hand you could find, not so strong to raise preflop but too strong to fold to your raise. Unlucky.

I would fold. What am I missing? You have 12 outs which is about 1 / 4 to improve. You are only getting paid 2.5 / 1. Yes you have two chances to improve (so your odds are say 1 / 2 of improving), but you will only get paid 1 / 1 on that second bet. Even if you get a flush on the turn you don’t have great implied odds since your opponent will put you on a flush.

This was not a rhetorical question – I really would like someone to explain what I’m missing.

I voted raise 3x. Shove looks like a draw, no strong made hand would push here. Flat calling is an option, but then you give away your implied odds and you let him hang around if he’s playing with a mediocre hand. Its possible he’s just playing position on you and a strong looking 3x re-raise will convince him let it go. If he repops, then youre all in for the decent odds you would have gotten if you shoved in the first place.

i voted 3x and then cityborn explained it for me.

thanks. my thoughts exactly.

also exactly what happened, and unfortunately we didnt improve.

these guys should donate half their buyins to a charity before sitting to play, seriously folks…

13 outs twice = better than even money that you will hit.

The problem is you are not all-in if you call, and with relatively deep money this becomes too difficult to play. Another problem is if you are against a better flush draw that is not going to go away no matter what you do, in which case you are a huge dog.

Given all that I would fold and save the chips. You took your stab at it and it didn’t work.

14 outs twice makes you a slight favorite to hit, 13 outs twice makes you a slight dog

I count 12 outs. But OPI is a better player then me, so maybe he wins with the 10 of clubs =)

I voted fold. I would pretty much want to hit an out on the turn because the turn bet would probably be getting pretty huge to call at that point (especially if he’s putting us on a flush draw). Also, I’d say that I only had 11 outs seeing as the 8 of hearts would pair the board and COULD make our low flush cost us a hell of a lot of chips(if he’s hit trips already of course). I’d just prefer to not have that problem. Plus, who knows, he could have a heart in his hand which would means you would want to make a bet large enough on the turn to chase him out if he does which he’s less likely to call if he’s got you pegged on a flush. I dont think the odds are there for this.

i voted fold too… a heart on the turn would make your flush but i seriously doubt you would get much action after this… this plus we know pushing on a flush draw is usually for the losing poker player