Value betting the river, no limit hold em cash

I’m betting half pot here. The only conceivable hand I’m scared of is 89. If he’s savvy enough to CR that hand on the river here I’ll pay him off and call a reasonable raise. So I’m almost certain I’m good and see no reason not to value bet here.

Im betting here cant think of hand im getting beat off as calling with 89 on the turn with odds that are provided doesnt seem correct, the only real hand i can put him on is a flush draw with an ace or a pair of queens. so hopefully a 1/3 or so of the pot just to try and extract as much as i can. Hehe

I think it’s close. The pot is already big enough to be happy checking. Your aggressive image might make him play calling station with a decent made hand (like Top Pair or lower 2 pair). The problem is he might not pay you off if you bet small suddenly (too clearly a value bet). If you bet big though, you run the risk he has the set or 89s and you will have to call his all-in raise.

If you believe he’s capable of such an intricate play with a set you’d better check. Most people aren’t though, so I’d value bet 1/2 pot which he might still call.

I push given the way hand is played however.

This is an easy preflop raise. Why do people always like to llimp in 6max? Stupid play!
By not raising preflop, you make decisions more difficult. In this example we lost value by not raising preflop as we would have bet flop and shoved on turn, therefore oyu do not need to consider a decision on the river……….

I am tempted and bet, hoping he has lower two pair.
The 10 is scary, but still…
I don’t hate the check either.

I check for this reason….I want to see his cards so I get a feel for how this player thinks. If I bet and he folds then I am clueless about what his starting cards and play are. Losing a value bet here is worth the info. Ex….if I check and it shows that he called my bets with mid pair or worse I have gained a lot of info about this player for future reference. This is an area of poker that is often neglected….info is king!

I love Richard’s answer above. I am going to work this “early check to force showdown” into my game ASAP…

Richard Nebenfuhr says:
“I check for this reason….I want to see his cards so I get a feel for how this player thinks. If I bet and he folds then I am clueless about what his starting cards and play are. Losing a value bet here is worth the info. Ex….if I check and it shows that he called my bets with mid pair or worse I have gained a lot of info about this player for future reference. This is an area of poker that is often neglected….info is king! ”

Yes you are correct but that doesnt mean this is not a value bet. Ok the reason this is a value bet is because the only part of his range we are scared about is 9T. All other hands in his range we are beating and he is likely to call with.

Ok so shoudl we really check just so that we can see his cards, so we know exactly if his hand was in the range we stated. In my opinion No!
Why?
Firstly because there are plently of other opportunites that me and the villain is going to showdown, and secondly, probably most importantly we should have statistics on him anyway. We shoulkd have an idea as to what his VPIP/PFR stats are as well as what his aggression factor.

Edit 9T to 98

I voted check based mainly on the opponent’s image of a solid, tricky player. It may be weak but I think this may be a case of the only hand that will call a bet is one that will beat you. Richard’s reasoning of checking for information makes a lot of sense too.

I like the check behind, both for the reasons richard stated (information harvesting) and because it seems like a “called only if beaten” situation. A hand like 66 doesn’t seem out of the question here: lead flop, call a raise, check-call the turn. A turn raise might make more sense, but still…

Given that he had KQ, the call on the turn makes no sense at all. Cold-calling with second pair with an ace on the board - what could he possibly think we had? QJ? 87?

Omg dont know why I bother with this site sometimes.

Why, Why are we checking??
Please explain Scott.

You say:
“I voted check based mainly on the opponent’s image of a solid, tricky player. It may be weak but I think this may be a case of the only hand that will call a bet is one that will beat you. Richard’s reasoning of checking for information makes a lot of sense too. ”

Solid and a little tricky. What in this hands makes you think he has anything that beats us???
Thne only hands that beat us are a set or straight? You really think villain has a set here? Very very unlikely…….
a solid player does not just call a flop bet and check-call a turn bet with a set. He is either 3betting flop or shoving turn. He may be tricky but on this boad most player will not get tricky. This certainly isnt a board texture most players will make a play on because it is too wet.

The only hand we are scared about is a straight. Well against villain range, there is only 1 possible straight that beats us and quite a few 2 pair hands that call a raise so we are ahead of this range. Also Villain most liekly leads with a stirahgt rather than goes for a check-raise.

All of this says. Bet for value!!!
We are losing too much EV here just because there is a small chance he may have a straight!

And Adam you say:
“Given that he had KQ, the call on the turn makes no sense at all. Cold-calling with second pair with an ace on the board - what could he possibly think we had? QJ? 87?”

I am a LAG player. If you dont kow what that means I am a loose aggressive player. I use position like a hammer and continuation bet nearly all flops so you hhave no idea if I hit. These sites give no detail as to what our image is like. What does fairly aggressive mean?? Does tha\t mean I am loose aggressive. Tight aggressive? (Btw I doubt we are fairly aggressive b/c we call AQo PF which is a mistake in itself) Lets imagine the player is aggressive. Doesnt really matter if he is tight or not. By betting the flop doesnt always mean we hit the flop. We could making a continuation bet raise with any number of hands. Flsuh draw, second pair, straight draw, A high, King high, Jack Ten hearts are all hands I may raise on this flop.
If villain did have KQ he would call flop, and most likely check-call the turn because we are known to be continuation betting so many streets.
By the river we are less likely betting as a bluff but more so as value. Villain may see that as a bluff occassional or as value on occassions, but he may call us because he believes his range is ahead of ours as we may be value betting a hand like AK AJ, and he may call with 2 pair……..

what two pair do you imagine he has? i doubt he floats the flop with AK or AJ, and while he may have backed into a two pair with an A, i think it’s just as likely that he’s sitting with a straight or a set.

also, since we didn’t raise PF (which, by the way, is a perfectly workable strategy in 6 max games, altho it’s contrary to the popular style), our raise will be less likely to be read as a c-bet or raise and more like actual strength, lowering the chances that bottom pair will come along. that leaves us with the possibility of middle pair backing into two pair, but don’t you think with a split two pair on the turn our opponent might have wanted to end the hand … there are a lot of rivers a6 doesn’t want to see and the pot is fairly built already.

i just just don’t see a good number of hands that are calling you that you beat, but i do see a few that will raise you and cost you an extra $200. i think it’s pretty marginal, but i’d bet that your losses outweigh your gains in this scenario, and when you add the info benefit richard id’s above, i think a check behind is a defendable play.

I like the value bet here, about 1/3 - 1/2 the pot. The ev seems positive given his action so far.

Value City baby!

Nice discussion today, but are we seriously considering leaving that many BBs on the table here because one possilbe draw hit? And, that player didn’t value bet it himself when given the chance?

I’m not sure the intuition is correct, but he has to bet if he hit his draw, since we’re going to check behind on so many marginal hands–since if our hand really is marginal, we’d only be called by a hand that beat us. So, the fact that he didn’t bet gives us the green light to bet. Of course, this rationale is exactly the rationale that someone would have to check/raise the river. But, whatever, they couldn’t have checked the nuts there, or at least I find that to be very rare.

I too don’t like the preflop limp with AQ. Sure, it’s unconventional, but it just seems weak to me. I like to enter with a raise or fold almost any holding.

Anyway, why on earth would we not value city here? Ok, the logic goes that we are only getting a call from a hand that beats us? Not so I say.

Let’s look at some ranges. Our friend in the SB leads out the flop and then calls our raise. Well, if our villain flopped a set, he may just call our raise here and let a blank peel off before revealing the strength of his hand. Or, he has a legit hand, but doesn’t really know where he’s at; but, a hand that he currently likes. TPGK comes to mind. Or, perhaps, our villain is on a draw and his lead bet was some sort of blocking bet hoping to see a cheap turn. I’m going to give more credit to a flush draw here than the open ended draws, since he does not really know if the diamonds for the straights are outs or not. So, I’d say that it’s likely that our villain is on the flush draw; maybe A-X of diamonds.

We’ve been fairly aggressive and we raise the SB’s lead bet with the button still to act. Well, I think that this suggests that we caught a very nice piece of this board. Perhaps a set. Perhaps top pair. Perhaps two pair. Perhaps a combo draw. Perhaps a pair and a draw.

On the turn, our SB friend checks/calls when an Ace hits. Wouldn’t he now check/raise (valuetown his set here while it is still good. More draws just appeared, but he would really like his set here and he’d have to expect to still get some value out of a hand like AQ. There is no question that he check/raises here with a set. I also think that if he has AQ, he’s check/raising here to build that pot. So, what checks/calls? He may still call with KQ or A-x of diamonds. He’s now hit top pair, but he can’t beat your possible hodling of a set, but he has outs. And, he’s now ahead of your KQ/QJ/QT. No real reason for him to get too frisky here with top pair shitty kicker so he may just check/call. So, his range remains something like KQ/QJ or A-X of diamonds. A combo draw is also a possibility.

We also gave away information about our hand on the turn. If we in fact did have a combo draw, or just a flush draw or just a straight draw, we may have just taken our free card on the turn. The fact that we bet means that we either thought we could take it down right there on a semibluff or we thought we had the best hand. And, since the A hit, I don’t think we even bet a hand like KQ there. I think we check behind on the turn planning to call a small bet on the river.

On the river, we see a Tc. And, our opponent checks to us. Is there some value in betting here? Again, the fact that our opponent checks makes me think that he is very weak here. He’s possibly got a missed draw or a Q, maybe QT, maybe he’s got the Ace of diamonds. There are just too many hands that he’s got that he just wants to get to showdown cheaply. Yeah, it’s true, we’re not getting any value out of a missed draw, but there is tons of value in betting that A-x of diamonds, the KQ/QJ/QT hand, maybe even the A7/A6 hand. If he had a set, he would have had to have made a bet or a raise somewhere here and he balked at every opportunity. I don’t think that there is any question that our hand is good.

Perhaps a bet here folds out a hand like KQ, but you never know until you try. I’d make a small value bet of maybe $60-$75. He’s going to be getting good odds to call. Why would we leave these 30-35 BBs on the table?

I say value city and it isn’t even close.

1/3 to 1/2 pot………I’ve made a lot stupider plays than that….

I say bet 1/2 pot. If he has me beat then ok I can live with that but there are $s in the pot and I am going to claim them.

Richard wants to see his cards, well fair enough but useful as that info may be I want him to have to pay to see mine. By checking here I am giving him free (or at least cheap) info when I show my hand. I would rather charge him and if he folds then fine I don’t show for free!

We should be looking at how to get the most $s from him and the olny way to get more here is to bet.

i would put him on a flush draw or a weak quenn. and bet a really small amount like 1/8th the pot to in duce a bluff or just info about how the value of hand. if i just check im wasting top 2 pair which is a monster in 2 card. i bet if he missed his draw he will fire over the top of a weak bluff bet to try to steal the pot.

If we value bet I tend to full pot it, which would mean villain is going an effective all-in.

By betting 1/2 it really looks like we are betting for value than betting as a bluff.
My basic logic is if he is calling1/2pot river bet he is calling a full pot river bet nearly as often. Also in terms of EV a 1/2 pot bet needs to be 2x more successful than a full pot bet. I think EV here is higher with the higher bet.

Ohh I would just shove to reduce fold equity and get calls by a slightly wider range.

At least Ally agrees with me

Opps didnt realise that the effective stack on river was $210. Thougt thats the starting stack. lol!!!

Anyways I bet $100.

I fold to a raise though as he is usually not check-raising bluffing and most likely has the straight

check. if he had flush draw, he wont call… if he has KJ or 89, you’re wasting your money. if u bet small and he raises all in, tough decision… its check, dude…

kj diamonds, suited… its possible \o/