Jacks in the small blind facing two raises, no limit cash live

Pfffft…. Cash games. Next.

All in. It really, really does not look here, based on the action, like somebody’s got a bigger pair than I do. I’d be very surprised to see either turn over QQ+, and I’m pretty positive that at worst I’m racing vs. AK, AQ, or KQ, which are both reasonably likely here.
Obviously, I’m ahead of anything but QQ+, and in a cash game I’m happy to play with any advantage I can get. I’m definitely more worried about A than B here - B is NOT by any means flat-calling the third raise with QQ+, whereas those ARE possible holdings for A.
I figure a push will take down the pot right away a decent part of the time, another good percentage of the time I’ll be happy to race against AK/AQ, and only rarely will I be bummed to see A call and flip over aces/kings/queens.

Jeremy, how does this action “really, really not look like somebody’s got a bigger pair”? Both the reraise from the shortstack (perhaps trying to isolate) and the call from the big stack (perhaps trying to slowplay aces or kings) could indicate a huge hand. Of course, you might have them beat, but I think it’s just too risky to make the push here and now. After all, what are you going to get called by that can’t beat your hand? Not much, AK at best…

Its just Jacks,lay em down.

Easy all-in, given the wonderfully detailed player history. Why even let these guys see a flop and catch their obvious draws? If I knew nothing about these players or they were known rocks, the plays would be call and possibly even fold. You’ve got to know your opponents - as best as possible. Not as tough online as many claim it is.

I don’t see how to call this hand being the first to act with two player who might already have you beaten already. I’d expect player A to raise with any hand and any flop and then? Should i keep playing. What if player B calls (which he might do with AA or 72) should I really risk another bet on this not so profittable hand?
Actually, the only way I see me playing this hand is if I had raised strong before player A did.

I think call is the move. At only 3-1 on your monies and w/ limp from UTG it is too risky to be gambling w/ a smooth call from behind…the dude is a monkey (or donkey if you prefer) by the hand set-up discriptor, but why risk your entire stack to a monkey that fo sho will call an ‘all-in’ w/ AK,AQ or even KQ. Jacks are defintely ahead at this point but no need to wanna punch a guy in the face when he hits his A,K or Q on the flop. Monkeys…Gotta love um when you know they are destroyed but hate em when they call and may be able to take your stack.

I voted all-in, but the real play here (in this position) is the two part all-in. Call and then all-in if the flop doesn’t bright the QKA.

Playing J’s hard after two raises pre-flop is a recipe for pain.

Fold it while you still have some chips left.

This happened to me last night in a cash game.
I raised it up with JJ and got two callers. The flop was 10-7-3 and I raised half the pot. when I got one caller and the other folded I knew I was up against a bigger pair, but it was too late. he turned over QQ and the turn and river didn’t help me.

Mr. Anonymous - I should have also explicitly stated that based on the description of the players AND the action, it really doesn’t look like anyone’s got a bigger pair. B is real loose, and his smooth-call screams AQ/AK. It’s pretty inconceivable that he’s slowplaying a pocket pair - that’s almost always a terrible idea. QQ+ usually likes to get as much money in preflop as possible, and flat-calling like B did certainly isn’t the way to go about that. So I’d say it is extremely unlikely B has us beat.
A is more of a wildcard. The straddle is live so we can’t give him much credit for his initial raise. The second raise he puts in is more perplexing - but my decision here is based more on the description: “clearly frustrated.” The guy wants this pot, and I’m inclined not to believe he’s genuinely strong. But he still is much more of a threat than B. I’m feeling that A has got us beat maybe 1 in 3 or 4 times, and B 1 in 10 times.
So given my read here, I like my odds and I’m playing. As I said before, I’m more than happy to play the 55/45 game against AK here.

It’s just me, but I really don’t like my spot here with JJ.

I really don’t care how loose player B is overall. Even loose aggro players have some constraing in early position. I just can’t see him raising total rags even if he has opened with a raise in the past with Q8s. Q8s when first in from late position is not a bad raise. Q8s UTG or UTG+1 at a full table is terrible.

So, first, let’s look at player A. Ok, so he’s frustrated. And, maybe he’s a little tilted. But, that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have some kind of a hand here. He’s facing an utg raise (essentially because of his straddle) and he decides to repop it for 1/3 of his stack? He’s clearly willing to go to the felt with this hand. So, you really have to put him on AK/JJ+.

Now on to player B. Ok, so he’s loose, but is he really loose from UTG? Perhaps. The given description doesn’t give enough info about his EP play, but unless he is a total donkey, I think we have to assume that his EP raising requirements are much higher than in late position. I am thinking something like AQ+ and 99+. By raising and then flat calling player A’s raise (obviously, player A is too short to play for set value), he’s got to really like his hand.

The difficulties with player B come into play with what could he raise preflop with in EP that he does not 5-bet here in this spot? (ok, so not your typical 5-bet considering the straddle, but still) Would he flat call with AA/KK? Perhaps. By flat calling, he gives you juicy odds to continue. But, I think that most players here, especially aggressive players will want to build this pot as quickly as possible, especially with a player that has committed 1/3 of their chips. So, I really think A reraises with AA/KK. JJ is pretty much out of the question, so that leaves QQ/AK/AQ. I think all three of these may make this flat call here. QQ to see a flop that doesn’t have an A or K and vice-versa for the AK/AQ hands. These hands are getting a good price to see a flop and this player will have position post flop.

Ok, on to our hand.We’re given pretty juicy odds on making that first call given that the straddle has some dead money in the middle and given that the UTG raiser has a decent sized stack so that we can go for a set here. So, our range, in the eyes of our opponents is pretty much going to be a pp, 22-JJ. I’m guessing that we would probably reraise with QQ-AA ourselves.

So, we have player A on AK/QQ+, player B on AQ+/QQ, and they put us on 22-JJ.

I really don’t think based on our hand that we can force out any of the hands described with a shove so I really don’t like that option. Also, we aren’t getting the right price to look for a set. And, are we really going to know where we stand when an overcard hits? Are we really going to know where we stand when we see a low flop?

So, I really don’t like a call here despite the odds since we’ll only see a flop we like 1 out of 8 times. I just don’t think a raise shove is going to do us much good unless we can force out one or both of these other players, but I just don’t see that happening. Player A isn’t committing 1/3 of their stack and folding with the range we’ve given them. And, then, I really don’t see player B folding given their range. So, we’re putting our entire stack on the line in a case where we’re almost sure to be a dog for the main pot and at best a coin flip for the side pot.

You’ve committed only $30 to this pot. You can find much, much better spots to double your money than this scenario. To me, this is a pretty easy fold. Would like to hear how the hand played out and what actually happened…

Ally

Results:

You pushed, the straddle called, UTG+1 called.

UTG flipped over jacks as well, UTG+1 flipped up aces. Aces held.

This is one of those spots where I am tempted to call without the rigth odds, just in case…

In this spot I wouldnt really like JJ more than 2 2 -10 10, only got 30$ out there and scary action.

So I consider the setvalue. (not knowing the holding of UTG)
If I hit a set, will I get payed? Definately with this action and the size of the pot postflop.
What are my chances of flopping it?
Approksimately or 7-1.

What are the potodds? 3.21-1

Needed implied odds: 3.89*80$ = 311$

So basicly, If I hit and UTG pays me, not potodds. If I hit and UTG+1 pays me, nice pot odds. If they both pay: excellent.

The setvalue here is doubvious, but tempting none the less… The rigth move would be fold, but I was tempted and voted call…

And if the J comes and makes the set there can be an over card. It has little less than 50% chance. One of them, maybe two are playing a big pair. In that case you can not be sure you are ahead. If two over card comes, you lost. Unfortunately they can easily slow play their sets. If player B do it, you are broken.

After an UTG bet, UTG+1 raise, and a call a reraise and a call shows a LOT of strength. Leave your 30. But if you are sure both A and B are on tilt, then close your eyes bite your fist and push the allin button.

For me it’s a fold.

The over card probability is lower than the (high card over J on the flop) 57% because both opponent hold high cards.

Aces held. HA HA HA

In that case two of the four jacks can make a four card flush (not the color of the aces) or any jack a J or Q high straight flush to win.

All three player split the pot, if one of the following hits
- on board straight flush (max 9 high to lower the chances, because of the jacks)
- on board four of a kind with an ace kicker (there are two in the deck only)
-on board max 9 high straight, but not the wheel

The two player with jacks split if a one card straight hits (if the straight is A high there isn’t pairing on the board because it makes a full or four of a kind for the aces)

In any other case the aces are the winners.
(AA win:95,33/tie:0,32/lose:4,36) It worth to see the lose percentage. In this very lucky situation (for the aces) there is a not ignorable chance to lose (1:23).

I actually this this is an easy fold here, especially full ring. After UTG +1 calls the reraise by the straddler you know UTG +1 is committing his entire stack no matter what the flop comes. The straddler only has 100 left behind, so when he puts in 110 preflop anyone that cold calls has to have a monster, especially with someone with an aggressive image left to act. This is either push/fold, based entirely on the hand range of UTG +1, and in this case I think its safe to say that he has you beat a good amount of the time here.

Also, AQ+ pushes here in UTG +1 to isolate the shortstack more than AA/KK

This is dumb.

If you’re so convinced you’re beat, you have to fold bc you are not getting odds to setmine. If you think you’re ahead, you HAVE to push bc of these reasons:
1. You’ll be out of position the entire hand.
2. Given the action, Player B never has AA, KK, or QQ.
3. Your image is great for pushing here, especially considering B is loose, and you just bluffed him.
4. This pot is huge.
5. You’re giving the other players a chance to bluff you if the flop comes with a Q,K, or A.
6. Finally: YOU’RE STILL GOING BROKE TO AA, KK, and QQ if the flop is undercards, and CALLING DOESN’T CHANGE THAT.

Considering all that, you can make a case for folding, (which I think is wrong here), but calling is just the worst. This is a great place to push.

PS. To add to the last post: our hand is under-represented a LOT, and UTG could be making a squeeze play with a wide range.

I think we’re over-thinking the UTG position of player A. Yes, he was UTG originally, however, after a 30$ raise by B (and board folding to SB who just flat-calls), A might be thinking that a re-raise to 110$ could work to actually isolate him against a SB heads up, where A will actually have a position. B smooth calling there is somewhat odd, because he’s giving SB great odds to call there to close the action pf. Given the description of B, i would tend to think that he will not be slow-playing a monster here- especially knowing that A will probably be committed to this hand anyway. A right play for a monster hand would be to go over the top and get involved with 1 opponent heads up. I personally would put B on a weaker hand than JJ. A is a bit more trickier, however, i dont like a call there. I’m not sure what i’m drawing to with my jacks (aside from flopping a set), and playing out of position does not suit me. I am most likely pushing all-in here. Second option would be to fold. Calling is the worst move here, imo.

And for the most retarded comment of the day, I nominate this one:

“On the flop, you’ll actually be in pretty decent shape checking 100% of the time.”

Brilliant. Morons.

Morphy

hi, did you consider min raising preflop? its a great way of taking control of the action but not putting too many chips at risk… if they call, then bet the minimum on the flop turn and river to make the most when you are ahead and lose the least when you are behind. thoughts?

roger moore says:

“hi, did you consider min raising preflop? its a great way of taking control of the action but not putting too many chips at risk… if they call, then bet the minimum on the flop turn and river to make the most when you are ahead and lose the least when you are behind. thoughts?”

Thoughts? I think you’re likely a moron. I must retract my previous comment and assign the most retarded comment to you. You sir, are a moron. Have a nice evening.

Morphy

XaQ,

theres more then one way to skin a cat, just bcoz u dont think its the correct play doesnt mean it isnt.

roger,

Your recommendation is possibly the worst way to play it. No, scratch that. It is THE worst way to play it. I can’t think of any situation where you could play a hand worse than what you suggested. Therefore, you’re a moron.

Morphy

XaQ,

i recognise your name from some donkey blog, but I still dont know why you have to be rude to me.. maybe if you opened your eyes you would see that poker isnt a myopic game.

regards, and if you are ever on the lake we can go fishing on my boat.

Roger

Roger, ok, I’m a sucker for someone who gets called a moron repeatedly and invites me out on a boat. Likely to slit my throat and throw me overboard, but invites me nonetheless.

Here’s the problem. You min re-raise to $190, and Player A is all-in for sure since he only started the hand with $200 and has $110 already in. If Player B calls, there’s over $600 in the pot, and you’re advocating a $5 bet on the flop, turn and river.

There’s no way this would happen. Not in a million years. There’s no possible way a hand that puts $200+ of $680 in preflop doesn’t raise you out of your seat to a $5 flop bet. The situation just won’t happen. Make sense?

Morphy

PS, blog is www.donkeymanifesto.com btw. Glad you liked it!

XaQ,

thanks for playing along, was fun while it lasted, eternally donking, tnl xx

So there’s no boat? bastard.

I don’t think I can put Player B (PB) on a huge hand (AA, KK, QQ) and there are 2 reasons for this:
1) $30 is not really a big raise. I would think with one of the big pairs he would want to try to isolate. A $20 raise is pretty weak there. The only reason a person in such early position would make that raise is hoping to be re-raised.
2) He was re-raised and still just called! I would think BIG pair would want to re-raise just as he had planned.

At this point I am not putting him on AA, KK or QQ though it is not 100% out.

I could put Player A (PA) on one of the big pairs but I am not really worried about him. His stack isn’t REALLY big enough.

I think I would call here and see what comes on the flop. I am checking no matter what and I am 90% sure PA is going to bet. If the flop has a AKQ I pretty much give up on the hand, obviously. If the flop has no AKQ:
I am going to check and if PA shoves, I fold. If PA makes any other bet AND PB folds or calls , I call. If PB raises I fold.

If PA checks you have a serious problem since that will not tell you anything about the strength of PB’s hand. Essentially I am willing to concede this hand to PB if he really wants it. The main problem here is not my hand, it the fact that I am so out of position against a deep stack. Just can’t take a big chance in this position IMHO.

Fold preflop is not a bad play either, just a little tighter than I usually play.